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MDY Industries has agreed to pay World of Warcraft creator Blizzard $6,000,000 in damages arising from the use of MDY’s game bots in World of Warcraft, pending appeal.  The court formalized this agreement with an Order and Stipulated Judgment (.pdf).  Blizzard prevailed on several key issues at summary judgment earlier this year, setting up this stipulation regarding damages.  Had MDY lost on its damages arguments at trial, MDY could have conceivably ended up owing Blizzard several times this amount.

This judgment does not entirely conclude the matter.  Issues still slated for trial in January include whether MDY’s sales of Glider violated the Digital Millennium Copyright Act and whether MDY’s owner Michael Donnelly can be held personally liable for the $6,000,000 judgment.

Beyond trial, of course, there will almost certainly be an appeal to the 9th Circuit on the issue of liability, which would negate the stipulation, and thus the $6m damages judgment, if MDY prevails.

MDY did not formally concede that Blizzard would have prevailed at trial on all triable issues, but did agree “that given the likelihood that some amount of damages would be awarded, a stipulated judgment for the amount of damages to which Blizzard is entitled to recover [...] is an appropriate method to resolve the issue of damages.”

For the background of this suit, see VB’s complete coverage of MDY v. Blizzard.  Very briefly, Glider is a program that users run along with World of Warcraft. It automates key tasks in World of Warcraft, making it possible to play the game essentially unattended. Glider users can thus both harvest resources and generate high level characters without actually playing. Blizzard claimed that Glider violates Blizzard’s copyright when Glider copies World of Warcraft into the computer’s memory as part of its loading sequence, and prevailed on that claim, among others, earlier this year when the judge decided these issues at summary judgment. The issue of damages was to be tried in January, but this stipulated $6m judgment takes that issue off the table.

From the order:

1. Blizzard shall be entitled to recover the total sum of $6,000,000 as monetary damages for counts I, II and III of its Counterclaims and Third Party Complaint related to the sale of Glider up through and including September 1, 2008.
2. Blizzard shall not be entitled to double or triple recovery for counts I, II and III. That is, Blizzard shall be entitled to receive a total of $6,000,000 in damages for counts I, II and III. However, should liability on any one or two of the counts be reversed on appeal, any one of these counts independently supports the $6,000,000 award.
3. In the event that the Court determines that Michael Donnelly is personally liable, either individually or jointly and severally, under counts I, II, or III, this stipulation shall extend to him.
4. The parties shall submit their disputed and undisputed statements of facts and law related to the DMCA claim on September 10, 2008.
5. Counts V and VII of Blizzard’s Counterclaims and Third Party Complaint alleging trademark infringement and unjust enrichment are hereby dismissed by stipulation of the parties.

Trial on the remaining issues is scheduled for January 8, 2009.

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53 Responses to “MDY Agrees to Pay Blizzard $6m in Damages in World of Warcraft Bot Lawsuit, Pending Appeal”

  1. on 29 Sep 2008 at 10:20 pmOklahoma

    Since the beginning I have hoped blizzard will win this case, and if their last hope is the far cry appeal on the basis that it is, then blizzard seems to have already won.

    It bothers me though, the course blizzard has taken. Now, it just means that we will have “Generic MMO Bots” that act as a framework and use ‘user submitted plugin packs’ not officially licensed by the creator.

    Not only that, now all bot creation and whatnot will go offshore and blizzard will be powerless to stop it. All this does is make things worse for the gamers.

    The one thing however, is that its most certain that donnely will be out 6 million personally as there is close to 0 chance of the court finding in his favor for that, as he operated it so close to his heart. It will be nice to see that judgment following him around for the rest of his life.

    I wonder if his state AG will opt for criminal copyright infringement charges if so persuaded by blizz counsel.
    Its not a far stretch, since the CP infringement charges should stand up and is fairly clear cut.

  2. on 30 Sep 2008 at 3:54 amDoubledown Tandino

    Are we talking 6 million in USDs? Or 6 million payable in world or warcraft through gold, battle swords, and magic shields?

  3. on 30 Sep 2008 at 3:56 amLetshateless

    Quote Oklahoma:
    “It will be nice to see that judgment following him around for the rest of his life.”

    Nice hateful mindset you have there buddie. Considering the fact that the guy programmed a computer game bot, and didnt indulge in any kind of killing spree involving members of your immediate family, one might be inclined to suggest that you’re taking this all too personally and are over reacting just a little bit. ;)

  4. on 30 Sep 2008 at 6:14 amGliderUser

    Why do you contest the use of such programs?

    If the programs do not exist then you will see a boom in sweatshops and slavery throughout the Asian country’s producing more gold and levels then a program defined by parameters.

    At least if a botter was banned it was due to them botting, but how do you ban a Chinese farmer? Under what basis can you ban them unless you catch them selling the virtual currency?

    There are sweatshop masters around the world waiting for the fall of glider so they can reign once more.

    The fall of glider will not make it easier on your average player, it will destroy there gaming experience and populate servers with hundreds of under geared characters filling all there favorite farming spots with nothing to do but simply watch them rape and pillage all there hard work.

    Why should i not use a program? Blizzard has created a drug, one almost as dangerous as heroin destroying all ages around the globe.

    The addictive hooks reel you in and keep you on for hours a day. Slowly slowly you get sucked in deeper as your urge grows. First you take some leave from work to play, then your taking sick days and bereavement days. Next you will find any excuse to quit your job or be fired. You blame the economy on the reason why you haven’t found a job 3 months after your last but you hide the dark secret that when you wake your first agenda is to login and start grinding and before you know it its 3am again time for sleep. Dont worry you say to yourself, tomorrow ill look for a job.

    That day came for me once i found glider about 2 years ago, this tool saved me from what no family member could. It released me form the bonds of this addiction and as time went on my interest faded completely. The reason why Blizzard want to shutdown glider is because glider is rehabilitating its cash cows.

    Glider to me is like nicotine to patches to smokers.

    Glide on glide strong.

  5. on 30 Sep 2008 at 10:19 amWowGlideruser

    Blizzard doesn’t need to be taking this case to such an extreme level on such a shitty claim.

    Instead of focusing on ending MDY’s business and taking everything he has they should be focusing on improving game content and the in game experience.

    Glider has only helped Blizzard gain revenue by bringing former players back to glide and current players to buy more than just one account.

    Blizzard is such a hot head that when YOU go out and BUY the game and create YOUR own account they say that they are lending the account to you and that they have the final say, which can easily result in a pointless permanent ban without reason or even contacting you first.

    Fuck Blizzard

  6. on 30 Sep 2008 at 10:19 ambob

    to: Doubledown Tandino

    $ is real life 6,000,000G would be gold in wow… and in which case they would just programm the game to take it anyway they want.

    to: glideuser

    why ruin everyone else’s gaming experience with your selfish money bots? it goes past the copyright and is therefore illegal wether or not your family sucks too bad to get you off the game themself… you cant blame blizzard, its like blaming mcdonalds for you putting their food in your mouth… you got into it yourself, not the company.

    i hope blizzard wins this in january, bots should be put to rest and people should stop buying accounts… all that stuff is just wrong

  7. on 30 Sep 2008 at 11:25 amBotsRuLE

    How many accounts has blizzard banned? at anyhere between 20-40 dollars per account and 15 dollars a month who has benifited more from glider? Glider got 25 and only 5 a month if you upgraded. But if your account got banned by useing glider you dont by another glider you by another account so then you are spending another 20-40 dollars and still 15 dollars a month…… do you see the circle? I would think as a stock holder of blizzard you wouldnt condone the legal actions against glider and stick with the profits!

  8. on 30 Sep 2008 at 12:31 pmPaks


    “Instead of focusing on ending MDY’s business and taking everything he has they should be focusing on improving game content and the in game experience.”

    Yeah, I’m sure those lawyers and legal assistants lost a lot of coding time needed to buff your Night Elf by working on this case…

    I can’t believe the MDY guy didn’t know that what he was doing could get him in trouble. If you can’t accept responsibility for your actions then don’t do it. He did it and was profiting from it even, so I for one feel no pity.

  9. on 01 Oct 2008 at 3:19 amGliderUser

    To bob:

    MDY has infringed no copyright and by using a bot is also does not infringe any copyright. Maybe you should look up what copyright actually means before trying to sound older then 12?

    FYI McD’s has introduced is new healthy menu due to various suits against there foods causing people to become obese.

    Kid if you want to discuss things like and adult, knowledge is power.

    I would also like to quote you on this:

    “i hope blizzard wins this in january, bots should be put to rest and people should stop buying accounts… all that stuff is just wrong”

    Do you not understand that stopping glider will not stop gold and account selling?

    If you read my post you would have found out that instead of bots it will be sweat shops in asia producing everything.

    And more people will buy then before because there not afraid of people using bots to power level them anymore.

    To top it off, i bet your a night elf hunter who spams trade with “LF4M H Blah, Need tank, heals and dps”.

    To Paks:

    Blizzard is suing for loss of income, not damages to there application.

    You cant get into trouble for creating a 3rd party application that doesnt manipulate the original code or memory of the program. It may be against the TOS but not any legislation.

    Its like saying certain mod creators are doing illegal activitys e.g. quest helper, blizzard could sue them for making the leveling process faster then the game parameters were created for.

    Sounds stupid but these are factual scenarios

  10. on 01 Oct 2008 at 6:55 amPaks

    @GliderUser, no need to be insulting. I’m sure this judgment angers you but still.

    And I do agree knowledge is power. Perhaps you should educate yourself on what’s already been ruled on by the court:

    “The Court ultimately held that:

    Blizzard owns a valid copyright in the game client software, Blizzard has granted a limited license for WoW players to use the software, use of the software with Glider falls outside the scope of the license established in section 4 of the TOU, use of Glider includes copying to RAM within the meaning of section 106 of the Copyright Act, users of WoW and Glider are not entitled to a section 117 defense, and Glider users therefore infringe Blizzard’s copyright. MDY does not dispute that the other requirements for contributory and vicarious copyright infringement are met, nor has MDY established a misuse defense. The Court accordingly will grant summary judgment in favor of Blizzard with respect to liability on the contributory and vicarious copyright infringement claims in Counts II and III.”

    Now whether people agree with that judgment or not is a different story up for debate, but that doesn’t change what currently IS fact.

    Stopping glider is just one step… one step not a sweeping move Blizzard is claiming will end RMT in their games forever.

    Also, from the angry tone of your posts and dramatic painting of situations I’m going to guess this ruling will somehow effect you pretty deeply, perhaps in your pockets, which would explain a lot.

  11. on 01 Oct 2008 at 10:18 amNegrodamus

    Sad day when the man gets 6Mil and us poor people are just trying to make a buck

    I will continue to sell bots, sell gold and sell accounts for every MMO out there and will not stop becuase of come Civil Injunction.

    Another fine example why us poor and middle class will never get a shot at being ontop

    God Damn where is my Robin Hood now

  12. on 01 Oct 2008 at 10:29 amInformedinthesituation

    The judge that awarded that claim is bias and should remove himself from the case. Blizzard has no legal basis for this lawsuit claiming copying the game into memory of a computer infringes on their copyright. Virus scanners copy their game into memory too. Why isn’t Blizzard going after them? The reason people bot is the long and tedious situation Blizzard puts them into. Time waste to pay more money to Blizzard anyone? Do not fool yourselves this is about Blizzards bottom line at the expense of your kid’s waist line.

  13. on 01 Oct 2008 at 10:36 amPowerstuck


    It’s funny how you tend to blame Blizzard for this. If you are unable to stop playing a video game…it’s more of a psychological status of yours. Everysingle grown up man can make choices and assume them…which you don’t seem to be able to do.

    Blizzard, by banning 100 000′s of accounts that have been detected using Glider was actually trying to help. Instead of yours not going back to a game, what did you do…purchased another copy, started all over again, should Blizzard feel guilty…not sure.

    As for the Glider author…when those 100 000 of accounts got banished…all you needed to buy another copy of the game (40$) and another Glider (assuming you havent learned a lesson)…and the dude as Blizzard just got more pockets filled.

    Playing a game with chinese farmers all around doesn’t hurt me that much, considering I can farm too. But having a friend that Glided his fishing / cooking / rep farming while away from computer thus while I have to spend 100′s of boring hours doing the same does make the game less enjoying for myself.

  14. on 01 Oct 2008 at 11:11 amNotalawyer


    I’m not sure you understand the judge’s position in the court, he simply reviews the information presented to him and makes a judgement based on that information. The only way that he could be biased is if, for example, he had stock ownership in Blizzard or possibly had family who work for Blizzard

  15. on 01 Oct 2008 at 10:01 pmDoubledown Tandino

    I still play World of Warcraft 1 and 2. Technically I’m a blizzard employee. and who isnt

  16. on 02 Oct 2008 at 4:49 amGrisch

    The ‘pro-bot’ responses I see just keep reminding me how much our society has lost any concept of personal accountability.

    The guy made a bot program with the full knowledge of what he was doing. People who used it were WARNED that they could be banned for using it. Yet.. somehow, in all this there are people who still see Bliz as the bad guy. I mean he even sued them FIRST!

    People need to stop shifting blame onto everything else and looking for loopholes in everything.

    Really getting sick of the attitude that you can do anything you want on the net ‘because it’s not real’, and anyone who takes issues with it gets the ‘internets is serious business’ line thrown at them.

    Well here you go idiot. The internet IS serious business. 6 Million dollars of serious business in your case.

    Wake the hell up and start accepting some responsibility.

  17. [...] Shames 3. Oktober 2008 Der Software-Hersteller MDY Industries hat sich in einem Rechtsstreit um das Bot-Programm Glider für das Online-Rollenspiel World of Warcraft mit Blizzard Entertainment und Vivendi Games auf eine Schadenersatzzahlung von 6 Millionen US-Dollar geeinigt. Das Bezirksgericht in Arizona hat die Einigung bereits anerkannt, wie das Rechtsblog Virtually Blind dokumentiert. [...]

  18. on 03 Oct 2008 at 10:51 pms.

    “I mean he even sued them FIRST!”

    I think you’ll find it is a counter sue on MDY’s behalf.

    While I myself am a botter, I am under no delusion that it is wrong, I mean I’m getting free characters to high levels, and have a 70 of every class on both factions over several accounts that I pay for using gold that I sell, and to be honest I couldn’t care less if they get banned, i’ll just quit. Life is > wow, which is why I started botting to begin with.

    What annoys me is the attacks on the author personally, he has infringed the ToU to play wow, but not international copyright laws. The reason the judging has to be harsh on either side is the ruling to this case can determine whether game companies now have the power to create copyright laws through their ToU, therefore creating laws.

    That would be (I assume) a massive blow to your constitution.

    (btw <– Aussie).

  19. on 04 Oct 2008 at 10:27 amPaks

    Blizzard and Vivendi threatened to sue MDY but did not. MDY filed suit first because he/they apparently feared Blizzard was going to file.

    “According to MDY’s complaint, representatives for Blizzard and Vivendi appeared unannounced, (as if by magic?), at the private residence of Michael Donnelly, the sole member of MDY according to Blizzard, on the morning of October 25, 2006. At this confrontation, the Blizzard and Vivendi representatives allegedly accused MDY of copyright infringement, Digital Millennium Copyright Act (“DMCA”) violations, and interference with the contractual relationships between Blizzard and World of Warcraft users. The Blizzard and Vivendi representatives also presented Donnelly with a complaint against him and MDY that included all of these charges, and threatened to file this complaint in a federal court in California if he did not comply with their demands. In imminent apprehension of being sued, MDY brought this declaratory judgment action against Blizzard and Vivendi the same day.”

    What annoys me is people thinking it’s ok to go ahead and do things they agree not to do just because it suits their purpose.

    It’s just a continuing example of our inability to behave as responsible individuals especially on the internet.

    The Copyright thing, in my opinion, was just an angle or longshot Blizzard probably thought they could use for leverage against this guy to get him to stop without having to take any legal action. It’s just ended up that this guy decided the Copyright thing scared him more then anything else so he decided to press the matter in court which so far hasn’t gone well.

  20. on 06 Oct 2008 at 4:39 pmMike

    It was stupidy to register a company in USA – country with most “strange” and “famous” laws and court decisions.
    Price for this mistake: $6.000.000
    Never try to create an IT company in USA, if you can’t afford army of lawyers.

  21. on 06 Oct 2008 at 8:04 pmGrisch

    I guess it never crosses your mind that it might have been stupidity to try and profit off of ruining the game experience for other players?

    Maybe instead of being a more shrewd business man, he could have been less of an exploitive prick. That might also have saved him the 6 mil.

  22. on 07 Oct 2008 at 12:17 pmClassAction

    I was surprised at the finding for copyright violation. Also, I believe Blizzard has made a number of changes to the licenses – wouldn’t each have to be ruled on separately?

    I also believe I read at the beginning of this that Blizzard was looking for damages based on loss of revenue due to reducing the amount of time people had to play therefore reducing revenue. I’m pretty sure AOL lost a class action suit back in the 90′s for a similar business model which purposely kept people on-line while charging them for it.

  23. on 10 Oct 2008 at 10:28 pmOMG...GETALIFE

    This is just stupid. The whole trial is a wast of money and time of our tax payers, just like AIG. There are other programs just like it already out there (IE MMOVIPER). The creators will find away around the blizz software like BLEEM did for ps1. Sony took bleem to court over and over again for copyright violations, but guess what sony lost, that suit b/c bleem found a way to play playstation games on your computer with out breaking the law. Only reason bleem went away is b/c they didnt wanna keep fighting and b/c they ran out of money. The guys who create these bots will end up doing the same thing. Then it will become open source and guess what, There’s nothing blizzard can do. Its just another case of corp. greed, they saw away for them to make money, said hey lets Sh*t on the little guy who made a pretty cool little program.

    And those who say “people who use software like that take the fun out of the game.” Tell me how….and dont say “they should grind up to 70 themselves” b/c most of the people who use this software are either gold farmers or people who have a 70(s)char and dont have the time or dont wanna do it again b/c it sucks to lvl to 70 for your 3rd or 4th time. I hope MDY wins the appeal.

    and if the court says they cant publish the source code then they need to read the first amendment and other cases about open source software. Heres the reason:

    1) The software itself does not contain any proprietary blizzard code or information. Only code created by the creator, who can do what he pleases with said code as long as the code is in fact his and nobody elses.

    2) The amendment states they cant abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press so they can publish it, and if the courts try to stop them the ACLU could make a case.

    well thats my two cents, oh and im sure some one is gonna disagree and try to flame me but i dont care this is my freedom of speech.

    Have a good day

  24. on 20 Oct 2008 at 11:44 amPlayboy


    “It’s funny how you tend to blame Blizzard for this. If you are unable to stop playing a video game…it’s more of a psychological status of yours. Everysingle grown up man can make choices and assume them…which you don’t seem to be able to do. ”

    Have you ever tried to quit WoW? Just trying to quit is a joke, it takes forever, and when you think you’re finally done with all the silliness, they put one of their cartoon guys in front of you on the page “crying” asking you if you’re sure… Tell me how the average simpleton is supposed to defeat that? World of warcraft is the most addictive game ever designed, period. Blizzard knows it and continues to push out more content just in time to make sure no one leaves… Programs like Wowglider simply give those people a way to level a toon when they don’t have time. This is something you may have not learned yet, but when people grow up and get full time jobs and families they don’t always have the time to keep up with the in game Jone’s, so letting a program do it helps.

    In the end this kind of lawsuit isn’t new to Blizzard. They have made a business out of suing people because they know those with money will always win. They sued Vin Diesel for his movie Diablo even though it has nothing to do with them or their game, they simply based it on the fact they use the Diablo name. They have sued countless people for the use of WoW, because the words diablo and wow some how belong to them now… They sued over the whole battlenet silliness. The list goes on and on. The only court case they haven’t won is the girl they banned for being gay. They lost that one, but she didn’t want money, she just wanted back in and the ability to make a gay guild in game.

  25. on 20 Oct 2008 at 7:15 pmGrisch

    Soo… we’re back to blaming Blizzard for making their game fun to play (or addictive)? Seriously I thought this was written tongue in cheek at first. You’re blaming them for ‘putting up one of their cartoon guys busy crying’ because that makes people unable to quit? Seriously?

    And because they keep adding content to their game.. somehow this justifies people botting?

    And then.. to add to your argument you list a bunch of other, completely unrelated stuff, which somehow I’m assuming is intended to make Blizzard out to be the evil puppy kicking nasties they are, which again, justifies breaking the rules you agree to when you sign up for the game?

    Seriously, has our society spawned this many people who live entirely in little worlds in their own heads? Folks who seem to think the world and everything else owes them just for pitching up?

    Makes me sick.

  26. on 21 Oct 2008 at 8:56 amPlayboy

    @ Grisch : LoL… It’s just an opinion take some Nightquil and get a good night sleep. Tomorrow, try to read everything (left to right, top to bottom) and do your best to avoid only seeing what you want in what others write…

    Yes, I do (as do many) feel that a company that keeps an army of lawyers on staff to make “for profit” court cases out of anything they don’t agree with, as devilish… I mean, after reading the above and a few other documents I’ve yet to see mention of the minimum $1.8 million blizzard (vivendi universal) made from the “botters”… (120,000 purchased copies of Wowglider x $15 a month to play world of warcraft = 1.8 million in income [does not include price of game, or recurring months of service for those botters getting away with it])

    The point you missed, or flat out refused to talk about when you replied “you list a bunch of other, completely unrelated stuff” is that blizzard has a track record of going after anyone and everyone that doesn’t comply with what they feel they are owed. They appear to be able to do what they want with no negative recourse.

    I mean really, taking a movie company to court over the name of a totally unrelated movie? Look how many movies have the same name as another movie. Blizzard’s bitch was they “may want” to make a movie about their game diablo someday, they don’t even have a plan to make it, they just might want to!?! Come on, but yet they got away with it…

    And kicking a girl from their game because she and her friends advertised they were looking for likeminded gay and gay friendly people to play the game with? You support that kind of bigotry? Tell me that’s not picking on the little guy. Where is the $6 million for that girl? At least those 1000 world of warcraft gm’s got to attend sensitivity training as a result… Go legal system!

    And yes, I do believe they make it a lot harder to quit than they do to start. The crying little dude is simply an example and should be taken as such. Not as the reason Grisch would like to focus personal attacks on. It’s a discussion genius. You’re reply was completely biased and unproven, yet you somehow got that supporters are living in a box, and feel the world owes us out of the above text? huh? Or did you simply keep a completely narrow view of the text and allowed your predefined personal views cloud your response? At no point did I even suggest that “Botting” wasn’t against “the rules” as it appears you think I did. I simply added in yet another reason AS TO WHY people do it and why I could care less that they do. But I notice you forget to respond to those details, only choosing the ones that make your personal case against “botters”…

    Really, I’m confused as to why blizzard simply doesn’t stup a server for botters and people that simply don’t care. Kind of a win / win, for those sticklers for the rules. Blizzard continues to make their 1.8 million monthly and life goes on for Joe Plummer who works all day while his bot runs around with the 4 million 10-18 years playing the game.

    Politics RULE! (Grisch cry’s pallies can’t use the sword of 1000 truths! foul! its against the rules!).

    Makes me sick.

  27. on 21 Oct 2008 at 9:39 pmGrisch

    If you can stick to one subject for a moment, I can make this simple.

    1) There is no justification for botting.
    It doesn’t matter if Blizzard is selling taxidermied budgies to blind kids as pets and breeding puppies for the express purpose of kicking them. It doesn’t matter if they keep adding content that you need to level up to see. It doesn’t even matter if botting doesn’t bother =YOU= in particular.

    It’s against their TOS. The same TOS which you sign when you choose to play the game.

    2) It doesn’t really matter HOW Bliz nailed MDY industries.

    Copyright infringement? Great! Hell, Al Capone got nailed for Tax Evasion. The point is that they GET nailed. The guy writing the bot is ruining Blizzard’s product with full knowledge of what he’s doing. He was warned. He chose to tangle with them. In fact, as everyone seems to miss it, HE SUED THEM FIRST.

    3) Botting ruins online games.

    It may not ruin it for YOU specifically, but it does for a significant number of other customers out there. Games that have left botters to flourish have rapidly gone down the tubes as subscribers have left. Please show me a popular and successful MMO today that encourages botters.

    We play a massively multiplayer game to be involved in a game with other humans. If I wanted a bunch of computer controlled toons running around, I’d play an offline game and save myself 14 bucks a month.

    So did you get all that, or do I need to start my post off with ‘LOL’ first?

  28. on 22 Oct 2008 at 1:25 amOMW

    “It was stupidy to register a company in USA – country with most “strange” and “famous” laws and court decisions.
    Price for this mistake: $6.000.000
    Never try to create an IT company in USA, if you can’t afford army of lawyers.”
    Hey Mike,
    I remember having a conversation about offshore corporations and offshore hosting with you long ago. However, this country is also famous for appeals and adjusted settlements, like the multi million dollar “hot coffee” McDonalds suit that settled for less than a million.

    Good luck on your appeal my friend.


  29. on 22 Oct 2008 at 7:44 amPlayboy

    Let me ask you this, because I’m getting the idea here that you are beyond breaking any rules, ever. Have you ever made a rolling stop in your car? Ever steal anything? Software? Music? (mp3s?) Do you have any kids playing world of warcraft? How many? I ask because warcraft’s terms of use strictly state only one child can play for each parent playing. How many kids do you think are playing without parents? You know damn well rolling stops are against the rules (we all do), but you have most likely done it. Why? Because you could? Because you were in a hurry or late? The list of reasons why people break rules goes on and on.

    What the rest of us are trying to figure out on this page is why you’re so damn angry, so, why are you so angry? You know you have broken a rule or two in your lifetime, what about this topic is annoying you so damn bad? Did some “bot” setup shop on your favorite farm land?

    To answer the question about botting; no, I am unaware of any MMO that encourages botters, the reason being is I haven’t played any MMOs other than world of warcraft and I gave that up a good year ago. I do however know that Magic the Gathering Online was introduced with the issue of bots, so they changed their “rules” to allow bots in only the areas they felt were ok and also gave the botters a set of standard rules to follow. To this day it’s my understanding they have done very well with that.

    Sure, everyone can see that some people simply get annoyed beyond reason when it comes to bots. Just like the court case said, something like 500,000 reports about bots were made, even said that many of the reports mentioned Wowglider by name. How in the hell does someone know to report Wowglider by name? How many of the 500,000 reported cases lead to someone getting warned or banned? How many of those numbers are simply inflated or flat out false claims by other players? How many were reported by the same individual players? I’m sure you can relate to one guy reporting 20-30 instances of people he/she believed were running a bot.

    One last question, because I’m interested to see a fanatical view point on the subject. What is your stance on sweatshop labor in video games such as world of warcraft? What are your thoughts on people paying Chinese sweatshops to level their characters for them instead of using a program like Wowglider? If the game was perfect, these questions wouldn’t even be a thought process, but the game isn’t perfect so players have to resort to these types of tactics to stay competitive.

  30. on 22 Oct 2008 at 9:15 pmGrisch

    My views on sweatshops/goldfarmers etc, whether they’re Chinese, African or Basque are pretty much the same. They ruin the game for other people so they can make a profit. I hope IGE is the next one to get some Blizzard red-tape lovin’. Folks who buy gold and characters are as bad as botters.

    As far as being fanatical and getting irate, it’s less the botting and more the attitude that annoys me.

    We’re living in a society where everything gets justified. Nobody has to take responsibility for anything they do. Break the law? Not my fault, it was my upbringing. Drink and beat up my wife? My father started it, I’m a victim. Too dumb not to pour hot coffee in your lap? Blame the company that sold me a hot cup of coffee. Too lazy to regulate my diet and not live on junk food? Sue the company that sells me fast food. Nothing is ever my fault.

    I see the same mentality here. Bliz goes, don’t bot in our game dude. Guy keeps doing it. Bliz sues the crap out of him. Now it’s Blizzard’s fault, not his for being an idiot?

    As far as breaking the rules. Yes, everyone does it, unfortunately not everyone is capable of understanding the balance or the fact that they don’t get to justify it when they get caught.

    I’ve done a rolling stop late at night on my way home. I always made really sure there was no oncoming traffic. I wouldn’t do it during the middle of the day, when traffic is high. Why? Because it’s not safe. Despite the circumstances, if I did get ticketed doing a rolling stop late at night, I’d have to accept it. I broke the law, I got punished, it was my fault, move on. I wouldn’t try and blame the law or the authorities for punishing me.

    This guy? Botters? Equivalent of flipping the bird at the cop before running a red light and then complaining that the cop is being unfair for ticketing them.

    It amazes me that you’re still blaming the game: “…but the game isn’t perfect so players have to resort to these types of tactics to stay competitive.”

    I’m in a guild with 40 other people. All of them have top level characters with the gear they want. None of them got there by botting. My wife started playing a month ago, her and I have characters close to top level now that we started together. We didn’t bot, and we both have full time jobs and social lives outside of wow.

    Your argument sounds more like something coming from a bunch of whiny little kids who want instant gratification and can’t put in a bit of effort. Maybe when =you= grow up and get a fulltime job you’ll understand that a bit of effort makes the reward worth while.

  31. on 29 Oct 2008 at 8:45 pmqwerty

    Hey, Grisch

    First of all, the person, Michael Donnelly, does fully accept his problems, and tries to deal with Blizzard.

    You are trying to argue that MDY first sued Blizzard. That is correct, but he did that after a threat, after Blizzard lawyers came unannounced to his private house someday morning. They showed him a copy of a complaint what they would use to sue MDY if they do not immediatelypay him the whole income + some extra money of the last 3 years, in fact the whole time glider is produced and stop selling glider, shut down their website.

    The same day both Michael Donnelly, and the other guy ( i forgot his name, his internet nickname is hamut) decided to contact their lawyers and sue Blizzard. So the everlasting story began, and i really dont care who wins this case, except maybe for the symbol.

    I am using Glider (haha Proxy!!!) and i mean, what will happen if MDY loses? Ok, i feel sorry for mercury, but i am sure he will release or sell the source and some other company will have the rights. Or, in the worst case, he will release the source, blizzard will make a warden update and we all are screwed, but hey, there is always a talented programmer you know…

    NOBODY can stop the botters, sorry but it just is that way
    just start bringing your same arguments over and over again, it will not help you, because your opinion of morals about rules and botting are of no interest for all the boters in the world

    You know there are people who are gliding on 8 computers, in total 64 characters all the time, with no break, niht and day. He is making 10,000 $ a month takeaway 64*15$ and he does only use normal glider, meaning no monthly subscription.

  32. on 30 Oct 2008 at 9:51 amGrisch

    I’m struggling to understand what the point is that you’re trying to make.

    It appears to be something along the lines of:

    “Hahaha you can’t win, there will always be more botters we will never stop and we’re making too much money care what you think!”

    As I said, I hope the gold sellers are the next ones on Blizzard’s lawyers list.

    Yes, asshats will always be a part of our society, nobody will ever ‘win’, doesn’t mean people are going to sit back and accept it. Whether it’s in a video game or in real life.

  33. on 02 Nov 2008 at 12:09 amPlayboy

    @ Grisch

    I liked the response, it was very well written and thought-out.


    I’m still getting the “I’m greater than you” Hitleresque attitude when you write. It is beyond apparent that you simply have a lot of hate, or built up anger on this subject, but it is also becoming clear that you may be walking out of the house in the morning with the idea that society has gone to hell as a whole. That everyone is sporting a childish attitude and believes that they deserve more than they earned.

    I think it is great that you and your wife have been able to get some levels under your belt without having to use these kinds of software or services (just like the other 8 million users), but two things stick out from what you said. A) you haven’t made it to the highest level (which is totally ok) and B) you most likely haven’t been effected inside the game by the botters. With that said, the time you have spent trying to get to the “highest level” others simply may not have the time for. Instead they may have a hard job that takes up 50-60 hours of their week, or maybe school and a job, how about kids, or any of the other millions of responsibilities many simply don’t worry about when they are playing world of warcraft…

    This kind of gets back to what you criticized me on a couple post ago. Level 70 (“top level”) is simply a self-delusion and part of the overall addiction. Once you hit 70 you may finally realize that you have to spend the same amount of time you spent getting to level 70 that you will now need to spend getting the gear you want, and when you do get it, *{POW}* your gear is worthless and now you have to spend another year of your life trying to keep up with the 40 other possible addicts in your guild getting the latest and greatest. Botting and or buying gold is simply a way to lessen the wasted time spent farming and questing, you know, those countless hours of your real life that you have forgotten about and or have opted to waste because you want to feel like you have reached some kind of unreachable goal, or have spent quality time with “online friends”. People you wouldn’t otherwise associate with because you’re too socially unattractive.

    Do me a one last favor, type /played (I’m assuming this command still works) next time you play world of warcraft and let us know how many days you have spent playing the game. I’m curious. So many people out there have 100s of “days” played to get that gear they wanted, which is kind of amazing in contrast to something like touring the United States which takes just under 3 months if you hit many tourist attractions in every state. I polled a few world of warcraft players I know. All of them have been playing since the start; all of them have 150+ days played. 150 days times 24 hours equals 3600 hours of game play, let’s divide that by the 8 hour work day and we get 450 days of work. That could have been 300 8 hour days of reading a book, writing a book, playing football with the kids, making kids =P, racing a motorcycle, fixing the house, or simply working on being a better person, and only 150 8 hours days of getting that gear they wanted if they had used a bot…

  34. on 03 Nov 2008 at 6:19 amGrisch

    Ok well I figure if you can invoke Godwin’s Law, then I can take a shot at a strawman argument.

    Now for the sake of facing one topic at a time, I’m going to neatly ignore the arguments dealing with the negative effect of botters on the play experience of other players and their detriment to the in game economy. Right? These issues are not being addressed by the following argument. Besides, the enjoyment of other players and the health of the in game economy seems to be the last thing on the minds of the pro-bot group I’ve seen responding, so it shouldn’t change much.

    Now, moving onto the amount of time that botting saves you from playing the game and the general “Real Life(tm) > WoW” argument which gets put forth the moment any party feels the game is being taken remotely seriously.

    Let’s imagine ourselves a protagonist to identify with. For the sake of flying in the face of creativity, we’re going to call him ‘Bob’. Bob is in his early 40s. He has 2 kids, a wife and a dog. His wife doesn’t work as she has a medical condition which prevents her.

    Bob has a day job working in retail and he also makes some extra cash on the side fixing people’s PCs for them. Bob’s a generally busy and industrious fellow. He has to drive his kids to school and his wife to the doctor when she needs it. He’s effectively working two jobs to save enough for his kids college fund and he also needs to spend some time playing catch with his dog.

    Bob however enjoys wrestling. No, not the breaking chairs and flinging insults type as seen on WWF, the manly, large hairy men in tight jumpsuits kind.

    Bob doesn’t really want to wrestle competitively, he just wants to hang with his wrestling club and maybe participate in the odd local wrestling tournament. We’re not going to criticize Bob for wanting to roll around on the floor with other hairy sweaty men in his little free time he gets. It’s his hobby and it’s what he enjoys.

    Unfortunately, Bob isn’t in a very good condition to wrestle. He subsides into a quivering jellied heap after two push-ups while he waits for the black swimming spots to go away. The only real remedy for Bob is to spend large amounts of time working out with the rest of his club at a local gym. Several months thus and maybe a good diet to boot will see Bob working quite well with his club.

    Unfortunately as we’ve seen, Bob doesn’t really have the time to get to gym as often as he needs to and well to put it bluntly, gym is just damned boring for him. Bob recons he could much rather be spending the hours and hours it would take him to get fit in a gym writing a book, spending time with his wife and kids, racing a motorcycle or even making more money to put his kids through college.

    So Bob gets offered another solution. Medication which basically quarters the amount of time he has to spend in the gym. It will rapidly accelerate his body’s muscle growth to the point where he will be able to participate in events with his club in a fraction of the time he’d spend preparing if he just worked out the normal way. Sure it makes him sterile and aggressive, but that’s ok, because well he doesn’t want any more kids and he figures the extra aggression will give him an edge in the wrestling ring.

    Bob is quite happy to spend some of his hard earned cash on performance enhancing drugs. I mean, it’s his body and his life right? Why shouldn’t he? He gets to spend more time doing important things like hanging with his family and throwing a stick for his dog. He could even go and tour the US (as long as he pops his pill and does a couple of push-ups every day on the road).

    Now, how do you think the rest of his club will feel about his solution? How about folks in other wrestling clubs who hear about it? The guys he might face in the ring if he’s inclined to play competitively?

    Seeing any similarities?

    (Helpful hint: Saying “There’s nothing wrong with performance enhancing drugs,” is not the best answer here.)

  35. on 03 Nov 2008 at 10:44 amGrisch

    Addionally, with refernce to your previous points about time played, not having any experience with end-game or botters: This is not my first character.

    I have a second character which I leveled to ‘max level’ (Level 60 at the time). I’m quite aware of the “end game” and how much time it requires if you want the best gear.

    I’ve also had first hand experience with botters, both trying to level around them, do quests and put up with their effects on a server’s economy.

    As far as my /played time. I’m not sure what it is and I don’t really care. The day I start regretting the amount of time I spend playing the game is the day I quit playing it. Right now I have fun whenever I play, whether it’s leveling up or getting endgame gear.

    As I stated earlier, I also don’t play 24-7. I manage to maintain a marriage, a social life and a normal 9-5 job as well as other hobbies. Somehow I’ve managed to get my character to end game and enjoy end-game content. Looking forward to entering Northrend when Wrath comes out.

    The day I feel I need to get a bot or another person to level my character for me, is the day I stop spending my money on an interest that’s obviously not for me.

  36. on 05 Nov 2008 at 1:19 pmhardknocklife

    That’s just stupid, Blizzard should first put warnings on CD cover so if you buy a game you know that you can’t bot on it.
    Second, that’s just retard Blizzard is losing so mutch money so they don’t even know & there will be even more botters and more bot programs if blizz win they’re so stupid that they even don’t understand that all botters will be making more secure and more private bots and give them for free. There goes whole World Of Warcraft down.

    That’s your own fault for being blizzard the Game is going down.

  37. on 05 Nov 2008 at 6:48 pmGrisch

    You know… I actually feel dumber after reading that^

  38. on 10 Nov 2008 at 1:32 amRawkus

    Blizzard can go fuck themself. Honestly, you charge people out the ass to play the game okay thats our decision. Although the wack ass changes they dont ASK us to make they add into expansions and fuck the game up.

    How about, we sue blizzard for false advertisement and faulty sales. You can not sell a person something and then alter it after they have paid for it, technically that is illegal outside of all their “rights” they claim.

    And please believe, if someone could afford a lawyer to fight blizzard that claim would outplay their rights to their own game believe it or not.

    All you people bitching about glider, get a fuckin life. WoW isnt the end of the world, you get to cap level anyway. 90% of the people who use glider you’ll never come across in game.

    Blizzard is making money out the ass and now they just wanna be super pricks and sue someone. The funny part is im sure 80% of the people who use glider wouldnt even pay for WoW if Glider didnt exist, so with that said..

    Blizzard should fuckin payin MDY.

  39. on 14 Nov 2008 at 8:33 amdom

    ok now get rid of boters fine you all think wows gunna be a better place…WRONG over 100k copies of glider have been sold so bann all those acounts and ban theres enough ppl never playing wow again
    i bot its awesome im in school and work 2 jobs and want to raid with my friends but i dont got time to farm and devote my life to this game. so while im at work i make my bot farm for me i still play and enjoy the game and i really dont consider it cheating….if anything you allanice should be happy when you see me im a free kill. boters also bring in gold farmers an those bring in even more players to wow getting rid of bots is never gunna happen ALSO blizzard so now making alot of people jobless WTG blizz now some asain gold farmers daughter if gunna go hunger while he goes out and hand farms mote of shadows

  40. on 15 Nov 2008 at 12:23 pmGrisch

    Hope you have no plans to quit school any time soon. Keep working hard in English class, you’ll get there.

  41. on 24 Nov 2008 at 5:18 pmHachi

    This is interesting and good for the ‘integrity’ of the game. It really is extending the Grockster (vicarious infringement) ruling beyond copyright violations to EULA violations.

    I’m not sure how I feel about this in terms of legality, but it’s nice to see that people can be legally accountable for violating the EULA in a game world.

    And to Mike, if I’m not mistaken, if you have a business that works in the united states, regardless of where it’s registered you can be sued in united states court. My international tort law is a little fuzzy, but particularly if you’re also an American Citizen it would be fairly easy to get you into court.

    I would have liked to see a class against the individual botters and look how that turns out.

  42. on 25 Nov 2008 at 10:21 amemilie

    how many people have “killed them selfs over wow” are there familys alowed to sue blizz for murder ??

    1 if blizz takes down mdg they need to take down all the gold farmers as the “glider bot” destablizes relms but yet the swet houses of 1,000′s of azn’s farming and powerlvling dose not ?
    2 i’d leave the bot alone for now and go after the azn’s !

  43. on 25 Nov 2008 at 8:14 pmGrisch

    Ok what is it with the pro-bot brigade and barely literate 14 year olds?

    The last pro-bot person who actually seemed capable of writing a response that wasn’t a complete atrocity of grammar and spelling was ‘Playboy’. Seriously, look at the post above this. It looks like the writer just rolled their face across the keyboard.

    “azn’s”? What are “azn’s”? I’m left imagining some weirdly tentacled race which travels around space in their ‘swet houses’ destabilizing ‘relms’. Start Trek discussion is that way –>

    Silly “azn’s” coming to earth and stealing our brains…

  44. on 12 Dec 2008 at 12:35 pmsteve

    hey all,
    just my opion here

    a friend of me use glider for a good reason i think.
    he works like almost 24/7 and dont have much time to play the game what is sad because he really likes it and he refuse to buy an account online for supporting those chinese basterds.

    then he found glider where u can do it your own…
    he really likes it because he can continu with the game and he doesnt sell gold/accounts

    why cant u be happy for him that he can play the game?
    u hypocrit (dont know how to spell it) redneks basterds.


  45. on 22 Jan 2009 at 3:29 pmAlpha

    I enjoy this debate Bots, on 1 side you have people who enjoy bots and I might add pay the same monthly fee as everyone else, on the other side you have those who feel because they made a personal choice not to bot, that somehow their rights are more important then those who have. In Blizzards statement they stated that bots gave an unfair advantage to players. Well if we want to start going down that road, we could say that faster computers, internet connections, Designer Keyboards and mice all should be Banned, because yes everyone of those things gives advantages to certain aspects of there game. Those who choose to spend 2k on a computer will have a easier time. Those who pay extra for a faster internet connection get better pings and less lag. And those who buy special keyboards and mice have access to extra macro and function buttons. I say people who bot Have no unfair advantage. Everyone could spend the extra 25$ to bot if they so choose. Investing money in things that make daily tasks whether it be Virtual or not IS NOT WRONG it’s simply a personal choice. I don’t call people with snowblowers cheaters because they use them instead of doing it by hand. I don’t hate people use spell check instead of pulling out a dictionary. Do I hate Tivo owners because they can record a whole season of shows without having to set it up the hard way, NO! .. Get a LIFE just because something is not the way you would choose to do it does not make it wrong or cheating.

  46. on 22 Jan 2009 at 6:48 pmGrisch

    Let’s do this again then:

    Sprinting. Steroids or other forms of performance enhancing drugs, not allowed. Use them and you’re generally not allowed to participate in sports.

    Why? Because they give an unfair advantage.

    What about people who hire a personal trainer? Maybe a personal dietitian? What about people who spend longer training or have more time to train? Who are younger? Who buy a snazzy set of high performance running shoes that look like something designed by NASA?

    Can it be argued that because I have a social life and I don’t want to spend 80% of my day training, that I should be allowed to use a performance enhancing drug?

    Are the sports committees being unfair? Aren’t performance enhancing drugs simply a personal choice? Investing money in a bottle of ‘roids that make my daily training easier… why is that wrong?

    Try telling the Olympic committee to ‘Get a LIFE’ because they won’t let somebody use drugs.

  47. on 23 Jan 2009 at 12:46 pmPlayboy

    hehe, I have to agree with Grisch…

    Lern 2 wrote engrish peeple… No one is every going to care about anything you have to say if you can’t even be troubled to learn how to say it in the first place…

  48. on 05 Jun 2009 at 5:05 pmCodeMonkey

    I’m trying to understand the issue here. You have sweatshops in Asia with whole business models revolving around leveling a character and this one guy gets busted for $6mil for writing a program to help you get to max level to play with your friends who have less of a life than you :). Explain to me how someone power leveling with a bot is cheapening your experience playing the game??? So ,what is the difference if I grow my character the long way and then sell them off. Power leveling to get through tedious issues means the game play need to be changed, not the killing off of bots. If the game play was better, then folks wouldn’t use bots.

    So the problem stems from this guy being in the US. Overseas companies are doing this and will continue no matter what Blizzard does. If this is annoying, play a console game where there is less hacking going on.

  49. on 08 Jun 2009 at 9:24 pmGrisch

    My word, the horse still breathes! Well, time for Grisch to grab his spandex, aluminium bat and find a phonebooth. Let the beating continue.

    I’ll break this down into sections for you CodeMonkey.

    [quote]“I’m trying to understand the issue here.”[/quote]

    Well my response here is that you don’t seem to by trying to understand particularly hard. Either that, or you seem to have trouble digesting large chunks of info at once, otherwise you would have gone back and read all the comments before this which covered every single one of your points ad nauseum.

    Now, pulling on the latex gloves it’s time to delve deeper into your comment.

    [quote]“You have sweatshops in Asia with whole business models revolving around leveling a character and this one guy gets busted for $6mil for writing a program to help you get to max level to play with your friends who have less of a life than you :).”[/quote]

    So ignoring the snarky and totally original little “MMO gamers have no lives” comment which adds nothing to the discussion, we’re left with what translates to: “Sweatshops in Asia are doing what this guy does, why should he be sued?”

    This would be like blaming shoplifters when you’re convicted of burglary.

    “But Guv! There are people out there right now lifting stuff from the corner store! Why should I get a sentence for burglary! It’s not fair guv!”


    [quote]“Explain to me how someone power leveling with a bot is cheapening your experience playing the game???” So ,what is the difference if I grow my character the long way and then sell them off.[/quote]

    No, I’m not going to explain something to you that has been explained several times over already. The entire case is based on the negative impact of botting on the game. Documentation attached to the case stating Blizzard’s plea has a long explanation of why botting is just not cool. Try asking on the WoW forums or in fact any other MMO, why botting is not on.

    In fact, simply scroll up on this page and see some of the previous statements I’ve made.

    Of course, you could also just continue to stick your fingers in your ears and hum a tune when somebody tries to explain it to you.

    Lastly, one question mark after a question. Just as John Cleese said “There is only ONE redeemer!” Well, there is only ONE question mark after a question. Learn it, know it, love it.

    [quote]“Power leveling to get through tedious issues means the game play need to be changed, not the killing off of bots. If the game play was better, then folks wouldn’t use bots.”[/quote]

    This sir, is in a word, horseshit. There is a subsection of players in any game will try to achieve the maximum they can with the least amount of input. Ever heard of ‘Achievement Servers’ in Team Fortress 2?

    Basically, Valve developed a series of achievements that could be accomplished during normal gameplay. What did players do? They set up special servers where you could simply get the achievement with the minimum of effort. If the achievement was to kill 3 enemies in a row without missing, then they would have 3 enemies standing in a line and not moving.

    Team Fortress 2 has some of the most fun and compelling gameplay today. It’s one of the most popular team based first person shooters. There is no ‘grind’. Yet players still do this? “Tedium” and “gameplay” has nothing to do with this.

    If the game is too tedious to play, you shouldn’t be playing it.

    [quote]“So the problem stems from this guy being in the US. Overseas companies are doing this and will continue no matter what Blizzard does.”[/quote]

    That’s like saying we shouldn’t prosecute criminals in the US because we can’t prosecute criminals in foreign countries.

    Seriously? Reason, when did you die?

    [quote]“If this is annoying, play a console game where there is less hacking going on.”[/quote]

    Frankly, this sir is truly the most asinine comment you have made in this entire post. Anyone struggling to appreciate the level of idiocy inherent in that statement should re-read the post again to gain context.

    It simply doesn’t bear replying to.

    In conclusion, please do some more research before you comment on something. These arguments have all been covered several times before in this and other discussions on the matter.

  50. on 09 Jun 2009 at 7:00 amPlayboy


    You’re back to this MMO gamers are not lifeless zombies trip again. 90% of the rest of the world is not you. You’re writing is pretty top shelf, so I can’t believe for a minute you’re retarded. Step out of yourself for one minute and look at the big picture. To ACHIEVE anything in these MMO games you have to be at the keyboard all day long. That’s just science…

    TV shows like South Park and others have made funny bits about how this lifestyle works. And yes, playing in an MMO like World of Warcrap is a lifestyle to many of its players. It becomes their only social outlet. It is like going to the bar for you and me…


    There are many reasons why these MMO players get upset about bots running around. Its been my experience that they are most worried about “THEIR” prime farming ground, which when not farmed by them, destroys the “in game economy”. Is this a flaw with the game or people in general? Who knows. I tend to believe its flawed people myself…

  51. on 09 Jun 2009 at 8:04 amGrisch


    Quote: “You’re back to this MMO gamers are not lifeless zombies trip again. ”

    “To ACHIEVE anything in these MMO games you have to be at the keyboard all day long.”

    Your argument is akin to saying something like: “People who play football well have no lives and spend their entire day practicing and running up and down on a field.”

    I can only deduce from that, that your argument for bots would be similar to: “Because I don’t have the time to run up and down on a football field all day with these other no-lifers, I have the right to use performance enhancing drugs and just outright cheat at the game. Otherwise I won’t have a chance to enjoy the sport.”

    Playing ‘these mmo games’ is as viable a hobby as any other, be it stamp collecting, fantasy football, paintball or chess.

    Stating that those who are against botting are selfishly trying to protect their turf from others who don’t have the same amount of time to commit as them, is close minded at best.

    That argument would never fly in any other hobby, yet for some reason in the badly understood field of computer games, it seems to prevail.

  52. on 09 Jun 2009 at 8:50 amPlayboy


    You have tried that sports/drug debate before. It’s not even close to the same thing. You’re taking what should be a game and comparing it to competitive sports and or career sports. That’s not a hobby.

    You’re right yet again my argument is like saying something like that, BUT as with my last post, if you could step outside yourself for one minute you would be able to see that it is NOT about football but rather about MMOs in this case WoW. I have no personal experience with people that are hardcore athletes, but I’m sure there is some bit of social, mental and competitive reason why they do it. And if they want to beat the guy that’s better than they are then they better find a way to do it. Either hit the gym 4,6,8,10 hours a day which leaves no time to sleep/work or juice up a bit. I’m not saying juicing is ok, but I’m not saying it’s not either. My opinion shouldn’t matter on the juicing statement has it doesn’t have anything to do with me. Botting once did. I do not agree that it impacts anyone other than those who make it a point to be upset about it. If they didn’t know, they probably wouldn’t care. From the standpoint that you want to keep re-visiting with the whole no lifers in sports analogy. Then yes, I agree, they should juice. If they came in to the game late, don’t have the time to deal with it, or simply do it as a matter of choice, then power to them.

    And I’m sure a huge percent of people playing WoW are not playing for the spirituality of playing the game like a hobby. They are not getting some sort of self worth by creating a balsa wood airplanes; they are not getting the exercise of running around a field playing paintball. The are simply sitting in a chair, 2,4,6,10 hours (and more) a day growing a persona that will not help them a year from now. So comparing the two doesn’t hold much merit for most of us reading your comments.

    Let me ask you this. If “stating that those who are against botting are selfishly trying to protect their turf” is close minded what are they bitching about then? Why even complain about botting? If it doesn’t bother them, why are they bitching? Is it that whole generation Y thing? Is it the overly developed sense of entitlement? I don’t do it, there for you shouldn’t?

    Video games are a hobby sure, but totally different from any other hobby in every way shape and form. So an argument that is unique to them shouldn’t be so hard for you to understand. We simply don’t care that this argument doesn’t apply to anything else, we are talking about Botting MMOs, not whatever you can compare it to every time you reply.

    What worries me the most are these people that cannot distinguish between who they are in a game and who they are in real life. They can take two hours to organize 40 people to take down a dragon over the course of the next 4 hours but can’t take 2 minutes to organize anything tangible like a check book or voting.

  53. on 09 Jun 2009 at 7:25 pmGrisch

    By the looks of this, we’ve reached an impasse.

    You feel that cheating in sports of whatever kind by whatever means including performance enhancing drugs is a viable option.

    I don’t.

    You keep derailing the argument to deal with the personal lives, quality of life, motivations (or lack thereof in your opinion) of MMO players. I’m simply trying to deal with the issue at hand.

    You feel you can’t compare it to any other hobby or recreational sport. I feel that it’s no different to a number of other less energetic, yet widely accepted and respected hobbies.

    As I said, impasse.

    Nothing more constructive either of us can add by the looks, so I’m done.

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