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	<title>Comments on: Hernandez v. IGE Class Action Litigation Update: Response to Motion to Dismiss Filed</title>
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	<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/</link>
	<description>Legal Issues That Impact Virtual Worlds</description>
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		<title>By: Peter Hanley</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/#comment-13264</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Hanley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2008 18:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/#comment-13264</guid>
		<description>I would argue that in cases where a game economy has &quot;matured&quot; (i.e. a threshold number of players have one or more characters at max level) farmers that keep the market flush with rare items have a good effect on the game economy, because the abundance of &quot;rare&quot; goods tends to drive the price down, making items less valuable. 

The problem with all virtual game economies that I&#039;ve come across is that if you have a large number of players whose income is measured in top denomination/hour played (i.e. a character makes 5 gold per hour of play) then prices for items will have a convenience tax, sometimes far outstripping a rational analysis of the item&#039;s value.  In other words, a rare drop has several gold/plat tacked on to it&#039;s value simply because a high level character can decide to buy it for another of their lower level characters at a price that far exceeds the value of the item, but because the high level character is so wealthy it&#039;s still a trivial purchase. 

For new players, this presents a problem in that they often can not (or have greater than designed difficulty) acquiring the items they believe they need to make the game fun or optimized or whatever.  This is the target market of the gold farmers, and until this aspect of game design is changed, the gold farmers will be a fact of life for game players. 

Unfortunately, there are a number of ways to combat this (restrict players to one character per server, disallow trading of items, etc.), but they have bad consequences for game design for most players. 


I do have one question about this suit though -- could it backfire?  I feel like there have been a number of lawsuits around MMORPG eulas that have been settled/dropped/otherwise fixed by the game companies (the ebay gold farming guide and the Lambda v Vivendi suit spring to mind), and it&#039;s made me wonder if they suspect that their base assumption that they are sovreign over their virtual worlds is fundamentaly unsupportable in court. 

Lambda certainly felt sure that they would be able to demonstrate that MMORPGs are more akin to theme parks or public entertainment spaces than sovereign worlds... is it legal to sell the tickets from skee ball games?  If it is, that would infer to me that selling mmorpg currency would also be legal. 

But, I&#039;m asking the lawyer =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would argue that in cases where a game economy has &#8220;matured&#8221; (i.e. a threshold number of players have one or more characters at max level) farmers that keep the market flush with rare items have a good effect on the game economy, because the abundance of &#8220;rare&#8221; goods tends to drive the price down, making items less valuable. </p>
<p>The problem with all virtual game economies that I&#8217;ve come across is that if you have a large number of players whose income is measured in top denomination/hour played (i.e. a character makes 5 gold per hour of play) then prices for items will have a convenience tax, sometimes far outstripping a rational analysis of the item&#8217;s value.  In other words, a rare drop has several gold/plat tacked on to it&#8217;s value simply because a high level character can decide to buy it for another of their lower level characters at a price that far exceeds the value of the item, but because the high level character is so wealthy it&#8217;s still a trivial purchase. </p>
<p>For new players, this presents a problem in that they often can not (or have greater than designed difficulty) acquiring the items they believe they need to make the game fun or optimized or whatever.  This is the target market of the gold farmers, and until this aspect of game design is changed, the gold farmers will be a fact of life for game players. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, there are a number of ways to combat this (restrict players to one character per server, disallow trading of items, etc.), but they have bad consequences for game design for most players. </p>
<p>I do have one question about this suit though &#8212; could it backfire?  I feel like there have been a number of lawsuits around MMORPG eulas that have been settled/dropped/otherwise fixed by the game companies (the ebay gold farming guide and the Lambda v Vivendi suit spring to mind), and it&#8217;s made me wonder if they suspect that their base assumption that they are sovreign over their virtual worlds is fundamentaly unsupportable in court. </p>
<p>Lambda certainly felt sure that they would be able to demonstrate that MMORPGs are more akin to theme parks or public entertainment spaces than sovereign worlds&#8230; is it legal to sell the tickets from skee ball games?  If it is, that would infer to me that selling mmorpg currency would also be legal. </p>
<p>But, I&#8217;m asking the lawyer =)</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/#comment-11633</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 15:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/#comment-11633</guid>
		<description>It is true that many of the best items drop in instanced areas, but there are many components that drop from non-instanced mobs.  I&#039;m not familiar with outlands mobs/drops, but prior to the expansion there was a hunter that was always farming the &lt;a href=&quot;http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=7080&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Toxic Horrors&lt;/a&gt; - day and night.  Every time I went there to try to get some Essences for enchants that same hunter was there tapping the mobs as fast as possible - making it darn near impossible for other players.

Yes farmers (who are quite likely supplying the gold sellers) do have a detrimental effect on the price of goods in the game.  I&#039;m not an economist, but it makes me wonder how much the greater supply of rarer items offsets the prices of those items compared to the inflation from the jacked up money supplies.

While I agree this seems a trivial matter compared to RL issues, it probably does make some difference in &quot;the price of tea in china.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is true that many of the best items drop in instanced areas, but there are many components that drop from non-instanced mobs.  I&#8217;m not familiar with outlands mobs/drops, but prior to the expansion there was a hunter that was always farming the <a href="http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=7080" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/wow.allakhazam.com');">Toxic Horrors</a> &#8211; day and night.  Every time I went there to try to get some Essences for enchants that same hunter was there tapping the mobs as fast as possible &#8211; making it darn near impossible for other players.</p>
<p>Yes farmers (who are quite likely supplying the gold sellers) do have a detrimental effect on the price of goods in the game.  I&#8217;m not an economist, but it makes me wonder how much the greater supply of rarer items offsets the prices of those items compared to the inflation from the jacked up money supplies.</p>
<p>While I agree this seems a trivial matter compared to RL issues, it probably does make some difference in &#8220;the price of tea in china.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mitch</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/#comment-11603</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 01:00:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/#comment-11603</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see a real point to camping spawns for WoW though since most items of value are used for yourself, and have no great resale value.  Its not like Everquest in which spawn camping can result in very good deals for a player.  The very rare drops require a group, or an instance, both which are not very efficient.  While I agree the argument is valid, but it is not a very strong argument from a players perspective in my opinion.  Its like charging a minor 5 years prison time for stealing some gum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see a real point to camping spawns for WoW though since most items of value are used for yourself, and have no great resale value.  Its not like Everquest in which spawn camping can result in very good deals for a player.  The very rare drops require a group, or an instance, both which are not very efficient.  While I agree the argument is valid, but it is not a very strong argument from a players perspective in my opinion.  Its like charging a minor 5 years prison time for stealing some gum.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Duranske</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/#comment-11593</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Duranske</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 21:01:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/#comment-11593</guid>
		<description>Players (and gold farmers) &quot;camp&quot; spawns by staying near a spot where a high-value monster will appear and killing it when it does  -- over and over.  

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spawn_camping (referring to first-person shooter spawn camping, where players set up shop over the point where &quot;killed&quot; players are resurrected, but the idea is the same).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Players (and gold farmers) &#8220;camp&#8221; spawns by staying near a spot where a high-value monster will appear and killing it when it does  &#8212; over and over.  </p>
<p>See <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spawn_camping" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/en.wikipedia.org');">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spawn_camping</a> (referring to first-person shooter spawn camping, where players set up shop over the point where &#8220;killed&#8221; players are resurrected, but the idea is the same).</p>
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		<title>By: cyn vandeverre</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/#comment-11592</link>
		<dc:creator>cyn vandeverre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:56:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/11/26/hernandez-ige-response-dismiss/#comment-11592</guid>
		<description>What are &quot;camping spawns&quot; in WoW?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are &#8220;camping spawns&#8221; in WoW?</p>
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