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	<title>Comments on: Click to Agree: Virtual Currency and RMT Provisions in Virtual Worlds and MMO Games</title>
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	<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/</link>
	<description>Legal Issues That Impact Virtual Worlds</description>
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		<title>By: Flippy</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-14445</link>
		<dc:creator>Flippy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-14445</guid>
		<description>Your Quote:  &quot;IMVU Currencies cannot be used for any kind of wagering, betting or gambling either within or outside of our Site.”

I find that interesting because IMVU has their own &quot;gambling&quot; game you can play to win credits on that can be used to shop in their own catalog. You get one free spin and than have to pay 75 credits after for each spin and you can win up to 500 credits total.

So are they breaking their own TOS??</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your Quote:  &#8220;IMVU Currencies cannot be used for any kind of wagering, betting or gambling either within or outside of our Site.”</p>
<p>I find that interesting because IMVU has their own &#8220;gambling&#8221; game you can play to win credits on that can be used to shop in their own catalog. You get one free spin and than have to pay 75 credits after for each spin and you can win up to 500 credits total.</p>
<p>So are they breaking their own TOS??</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2007-12-01 &#187; What Future?</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-11753</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2007-12-01 &#187; What Future?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2007 08:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-11753</guid>
		<description>[...] Virtual Currency and RMT Provisions in Virtual Worlds &#124; Virtually Blind a summary of the major MMO games and virtual worlds, and what their TOS say about the rights of users as to currency and other virtual property (tags: law virtualworld secondlife capitalism) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Virtual Currency and RMT Provisions in Virtual Worlds | Virtually Blind a summary of the major MMO games and virtual worlds, and what their TOS say about the rights of users as to currency and other virtual property (tags: law virtualworld secondlife capitalism) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Taran Rampersad</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10950</link>
		<dc:creator>Taran Rampersad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 18:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10950</guid>
		<description>Jay, in response to your response about economies - again, that is still not necessarily true about real economies (as we are calling them). There are still parts of this planet where a human being can be left alone. It is rather extreme, I know, but it can happen - and apparently has and may continue to be. It is simply a matter of how rigid one&#039;s definition of the word &#039;economy&#039; is. There is no present &#039;sakoku&#039; that I know of.

In the context of culture, economy and relations - the sakoku is interesting to consider. I consider all economies to be virtual; I consider what most people call &#039;virtual economies&#039; to be instead artificial or synthetic economies... but even so, by definition, an economy is in itself artificial. 

That train of thought leads to some interesting things - such as virtual worlds enacting sakoku.

I realize that some people may not know what sakoku was - here are some reference links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankin_k%C5%8Dtai

I&#039;m still thinking things along these lines, but presently am a bit distracted...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, in response to your response about economies &#8211; again, that is still not necessarily true about real economies (as we are calling them). There are still parts of this planet where a human being can be left alone. It is rather extreme, I know, but it can happen &#8211; and apparently has and may continue to be. It is simply a matter of how rigid one&#8217;s definition of the word &#8216;economy&#8217; is. There is no present &#8216;sakoku&#8217; that I know of.</p>
<p>In the context of culture, economy and relations &#8211; the sakoku is interesting to consider. I consider all economies to be virtual; I consider what most people call &#8216;virtual economies&#8217; to be instead artificial or synthetic economies&#8230; but even so, by definition, an economy is in itself artificial. </p>
<p>That train of thought leads to some interesting things &#8211; such as virtual worlds enacting sakoku.</p>
<p>I realize that some people may not know what sakoku was &#8211; here are some reference links:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/en.wikipedia.org');">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku</a><br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankin_k%C5%8Dtai" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/en.wikipedia.org');">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankin_k%C5%8Dtai</a></p>
<p>I&#8217;m still thinking things along these lines, but presently am a bit distracted&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Moffitt</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10947</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Moffitt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 17:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10947</guid>
		<description>First of all, a reply to comment #1, that states
&quot;Certainly, in a legal sense one can leave a virtual economy (and for the record, the same can be done with a real economy). Yet leaving a virtual economy comes at a cost - just as leaving a real world economy incurs a cost.&quot;

I agree you can technically &quot;leave&quot; a real economy by leaving a country, state, province, city, etc.  But you will be forced to take up residence in another RL economy to take its place.  In economics they call it the &quot;opportunity cost&quot;, which is your time investment in your city/state/country - which is thrown away.  

You&#039;re correct that these days, with hundreds and hundreds of game-hours invested in a game, the cost can be compared in a parallel manner to leaving a city/state/country you&#039;ve invested in. This is especially true as many people these days are less involved in their township/local politics than they are involved in their online community.

On Comment #3, that IS a clearer currency exchange.  In gameUSD the sidebar is the way to navigate, and its confusing and sometimes dead-ends.  Thanks for the information.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, a reply to comment #1, that states<br />
&#8220;Certainly, in a legal sense one can leave a virtual economy (and for the record, the same can be done with a real economy). Yet leaving a virtual economy comes at a cost &#8211; just as leaving a real world economy incurs a cost.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree you can technically &#8220;leave&#8221; a real economy by leaving a country, state, province, city, etc.  But you will be forced to take up residence in another RL economy to take its place.  In economics they call it the &#8220;opportunity cost&#8221;, which is your time investment in your city/state/country &#8211; which is thrown away.  </p>
<p>You&#8217;re correct that these days, with hundreds and hundreds of game-hours invested in a game, the cost can be compared in a parallel manner to leaving a city/state/country you&#8217;ve invested in. This is especially true as many people these days are less involved in their township/local politics than they are involved in their online community.</p>
<p>On Comment #3, that IS a clearer currency exchange.  In gameUSD the sidebar is the way to navigate, and its confusing and sometimes dead-ends.  Thanks for the information.</p>
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		<title>By: Taran Rampersad</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10943</link>
		<dc:creator>Taran Rampersad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 15:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10943</guid>
		<description>Mitch: Good point on the monopolization. To some degree, that does happen in Second Life through Linden Lab&#039;s associations with people that they put their presence behind (or in front of, take your pick). 

WoW&#039;s economy is also based on game designer commoditization of goods, whereas in Second Life the users run amok. :-) The only thing that Linden Lab does commoditize is &#039;land&#039;, per se - and they have yet to deal with that subject in a manner which demonstrates that they are interested in preserving the value of the land. Thus, the only true farming which can be done in Second Life is probably the use of landbots and/or 16 m plots of land used to extort money from other users. The significance of these to the Second Life user base has yet to be determined, but people are consistently becoming more vocal along these lines.

The artificial construct of stock exchanges and/or banks could also be considered farming. Basically, creating goods and then making them rare or more attractive to purchase (through good marketing or bad) appears to be the Second Life farmer&#039;s guide. But instead of simply causing prices to go up or down, unlike WoW, this costs other people actual money... and that is where Linden Lab will eventually find itself in hot water if it does not change its approach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mitch: Good point on the monopolization. To some degree, that does happen in Second Life through Linden Lab&#8217;s associations with people that they put their presence behind (or in front of, take your pick). </p>
<p>WoW&#8217;s economy is also based on game designer commoditization of goods, whereas in Second Life the users run amok. :-) The only thing that Linden Lab does commoditize is &#8216;land&#8217;, per se &#8211; and they have yet to deal with that subject in a manner which demonstrates that they are interested in preserving the value of the land. Thus, the only true farming which can be done in Second Life is probably the use of landbots and/or 16 m plots of land used to extort money from other users. The significance of these to the Second Life user base has yet to be determined, but people are consistently becoming more vocal along these lines.</p>
<p>The artificial construct of stock exchanges and/or banks could also be considered farming. Basically, creating goods and then making them rare or more attractive to purchase (through good marketing or bad) appears to be the Second Life farmer&#8217;s guide. But instead of simply causing prices to go up or down, unlike WoW, this costs other people actual money&#8230; and that is where Linden Lab will eventually find itself in hot water if it does not change its approach.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Duranske</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10935</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Duranske</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 08:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10935</guid>
		<description>FYI - here&#039;s a link to &lt;a target=&quot;top&quot; href=&quot;http://sparter.com/web/index.jsp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Sparter&lt;/a&gt;, per Mitch&#039;s point above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FYI &#8211; here&#8217;s a link to <a href="http://sparter.com/web/index.jsp"target="top"  rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/sparter.com');">Sparter</a>, per Mitch&#8217;s point above.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitch</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10931</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 06:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10931</guid>
		<description>I went to gameUSD, and couldn&#039;t find the exchange rates you mentioned.  There is a more detailed one at Sparter which shows a mix of player, and company prices base on actual quotes, and sales.  

Taran has a point about the cost of leaving a game.  In a sense it is like leaving a business.  It will no longer produce anything, and eventually shut down.  

I do agree that in game currency can only go so far within a video game.  However there are also less limitations in a game.  Controlling a particular server&#039;s whole economy is fairly easy once you have the gold to do so, and setup a type of monopoly.  Doing so in real life however has consequences with anti-monopoly laws etc.

Virtual currency for games like World of Warcraft is a black market, because of the the TOS.  However the market can only exist, because of the demand for the virtual good.  I don&#039;t recall seeing the same news articles done about farmers for the game Second Life.  However that game can be just as profitable to people if done correctly, and still be well within Second Life&#039;s TOS.

I used to be one of those purists you mentioned for World of Warcraft.  Currently I&#039;m just another one of those people that would be heckled by the purist community for &#039;ruining the game&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went to gameUSD, and couldn&#8217;t find the exchange rates you mentioned.  There is a more detailed one at Sparter which shows a mix of player, and company prices base on actual quotes, and sales.  </p>
<p>Taran has a point about the cost of leaving a game.  In a sense it is like leaving a business.  It will no longer produce anything, and eventually shut down.  </p>
<p>I do agree that in game currency can only go so far within a video game.  However there are also less limitations in a game.  Controlling a particular server&#8217;s whole economy is fairly easy once you have the gold to do so, and setup a type of monopoly.  Doing so in real life however has consequences with anti-monopoly laws etc.</p>
<p>Virtual currency for games like World of Warcraft is a black market, because of the the TOS.  However the market can only exist, because of the demand for the virtual good.  I don&#8217;t recall seeing the same news articles done about farmers for the game Second Life.  However that game can be just as profitable to people if done correctly, and still be well within Second Life&#8217;s TOS.</p>
<p>I used to be one of those purists you mentioned for World of Warcraft.  Currently I&#8217;m just another one of those people that would be heckled by the purist community for &#8216;ruining the game&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Iang</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10890</link>
		<dc:creator>Iang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 04:17:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10890</guid>
		<description>Where to start?  history of online games go back around 30 years, money goes back 40,000.   It would appear that the games developers are doomed to re-invent the wheel, although enough failures and bungles should speed things up a bit.  Cold comfort may be found in the same game being played out in the banking sector every institutional memory cycle.

Where a money &quot;feature&quot; is integrated too closely into a game, expect trouble.  It should have separate TOS for example.  Where a money is described as a &quot;not money&quot; then examine the contradiction.  Game developers may dominate the users on knowledge of game development, but they won&#039;t beat them on money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Where to start?  history of online games go back around 30 years, money goes back 40,000.   It would appear that the games developers are doomed to re-invent the wheel, although enough failures and bungles should speed things up a bit.  Cold comfort may be found in the same game being played out in the banking sector every institutional memory cycle.</p>
<p>Where a money &#8220;feature&#8221; is integrated too closely into a game, expect trouble.  It should have separate TOS for example.  Where a money is described as a &#8220;not money&#8221; then examine the contradiction.  Game developers may dominate the users on knowledge of game development, but they won&#8217;t beat them on money.</p>
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		<title>By: Taran Rampersad</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10816</link>
		<dc:creator>Taran Rampersad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2007 19:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/10/31/click-to-agree-currency/#comment-10816</guid>
		<description>Good post, Jay. I&#039;m a little late in responding, but I would like to bring up a point. 

When you say that the difference between a real and virtual economy is one&#039;s ability to leave - I don&#039;t believe that is true. Certainly, in a legal sense one can leave a virtual economy (and for the record, the same can be done with a real economy). Yet leaving a virtual economy comes at a cost - just as leaving a real world economy incurs a cost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, Jay. I&#8217;m a little late in responding, but I would like to bring up a point. </p>
<p>When you say that the difference between a real and virtual economy is one&#8217;s ability to leave &#8211; I don&#8217;t believe that is true. Certainly, in a legal sense one can leave a virtual economy (and for the record, the same can be done with a real economy). Yet leaving a virtual economy comes at a cost &#8211; just as leaving a real world economy incurs a cost.</p>
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