<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Second Life Gambling Ban Clarified and Enforced; Terms of Service Remain Unchanged</title>
	<atom:link href="http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/</link>
	<description>Legal Issues That Impact Virtual Worlds</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 13 May 2014 04:03:48 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.4</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Father Jones</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-33417</link>
		<dc:creator>Father Jones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:18:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-33417</guid>
		<description>Second Life anno 2009: Too many people are still losing too much money on Zyngo. And it is for sure a gambling game first class. Even with the blue and green jokers, it is definitly a game of chance, like bingo is considered one. Talking about too much money, I mean like people playing for 1000 USD in one hour. Did you guys ever searched for high roller places with Zyngo? You can play machines there for 5000 (17 USD)up to 50000 Linden Dollars (175 USD) a game, with pots to win up to 1 million Linden Dollars (3500 USD). And that is what the creator of the game and the owners of those places call an innocent game of skill for fun? I wonder when someone will have the guts to bring this to the right people, the press, the financial company’s Linden Lab is depending on, and also of course the US government,… We are not only talking about Zyngo in this matter. There are lots of ‘zyngo-clones’ produced lately by other programmers that are made for the very same purpose: making huge money, not just the money you need to buy you a pair of shoes, a piece of land and a house to live in your virtual world. Millions of dollars are running around in this gamblingbusiness on Second Life. Anyone doubting my words: just take a look yourself inworld.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Second Life anno 2009: Too many people are still losing too much money on Zyngo. And it is for sure a gambling game first class. Even with the blue and green jokers, it is definitly a game of chance, like bingo is considered one. Talking about too much money, I mean like people playing for 1000 USD in one hour. Did you guys ever searched for high roller places with Zyngo? You can play machines there for 5000 (17 USD)up to 50000 Linden Dollars (175 USD) a game, with pots to win up to 1 million Linden Dollars (3500 USD). And that is what the creator of the game and the owners of those places call an innocent game of skill for fun? I wonder when someone will have the guts to bring this to the right people, the press, the financial company’s Linden Lab is depending on, and also of course the US government,… We are not only talking about Zyngo in this matter. There are lots of ‘zyngo-clones’ produced lately by other programmers that are made for the very same purpose: making huge money, not just the money you need to buy you a pair of shoes, a piece of land and a house to live in your virtual world. Millions of dollars are running around in this gamblingbusiness on Second Life. Anyone doubting my words: just take a look yourself inworld.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nobody Fugazi</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-5126</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody Fugazi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 06:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-5126</guid>
		<description>and as far as the punctuation fairy... France has an institute of language that rules on that sort of stuff. As Pinker points out, English has no such institution guarding the English language. Just some mavens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>and as far as the punctuation fairy&#8230; France has an institute of language that rules on that sort of stuff. As Pinker points out, English has no such institution guarding the English language. Just some mavens.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nobody Fugazi</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-5125</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody Fugazi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Aug 2007 06:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-5125</guid>
		<description>@11: Ashcroft - an open source grid would still be subject to international laws once the grid is not geopolitically isolated. You can sell orange sheep as currency, but if someone in another country complains you stole their orange sheep, you are in very murky water. 

@General: As far as gambling not being in the ToS, neither is the (up to) 150% fine for receiving funds which Linden Lab, in its sole discretion, considers fraudulent. 

Here&#039;s a recent entry on that:
http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/410

It references other uses of this fine. 

&quot;The Victims Must Pay!&quot;....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@11: Ashcroft &#8211; an open source grid would still be subject to international laws once the grid is not geopolitically isolated. You can sell orange sheep as currency, but if someone in another country complains you stole their orange sheep, you are in very murky water. </p>
<p>@General: As far as gambling not being in the ToS, neither is the (up to) 150% fine for receiving funds which Linden Lab, in its sole discretion, considers fraudulent. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s a recent entry on that:<br />
<a href="http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/410" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/www.your2ndplace.com');">http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/410</a></p>
<p>It references other uses of this fine. </p>
<p>&#8220;The Victims Must Pay!&#8221;&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ashcroft Burhham</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4982</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashcroft Burhham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2007 15:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4982</guid>
		<description>Nobody: I&#039;m not quite sure what your point is: what I was writing about there was the idea of the OpenDollar, and why it&#039;s a good thing to have a virtual-world specific currency. That wasn&#039;t the part to which I was referring, which was in the main article, not the comments: it was the part about an opensource grid avoiding the jurisdictional problems that Linden Lab has in the US.

And every time that somebody mis-punctuates &quot;its&quot;, a punctuation fairy dies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody: I&#8217;m not quite sure what your point is: what I was writing about there was the idea of the OpenDollar, and why it&#8217;s a good thing to have a virtual-world specific currency. That wasn&#8217;t the part to which I was referring, which was in the main article, not the comments: it was the part about an opensource grid avoiding the jurisdictional problems that Linden Lab has in the US.</p>
<p>And every time that somebody mis-punctuates &#8220;its&#8221;, a punctuation fairy dies.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nobody Fugazi</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4930</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody Fugazi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Aug 2007 02:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4930</guid>
		<description>@5 Ashcroft - that was a lot of text to sift through for this:

&quot;Ahh, I’m not so sure that it is such a bad idea, you know. There’s a good reason that Linden Lab started using their own currency, rather than using PayPal for transactions: it works better across international boundaries, and works better for very small transactions.

With PayPal, one has to pay them for each and every transaction, and pay further to convert one currency into another. Transaction values are very difficult to calculate internationally when different currencies are involved: think, for example, how comparatively few people purchase goods from eBay from foreign as opposed to domestic sellers, especially for low value items...&quot;

There are issues of extradition, what constitutes fraud in different countries, what constitutes gambling... in short, it isn&#039;t very comprehensive. I say this because at the UN levels (WSIS, et al), virtual worlds don&#039;t even seem to exist yet - partly because virtual world scholars haven&#039;t tried to discuss such matters at those levels. 

And I must add that ecommerce - which is the context of that stuff - is not all of national jurisdictions with regard to virtual worlds. Such commerce does not exist in a vacuum. 

Oh - and it&#039;s it&#039;s it&#039;s it&#039;s. Common mistake, no one dies. :-)

@7: Benjamin, we don&#039;t know how Linden Lab differentiates between the two and whether they do so consistently. Using the police blotter for guidelines is a lot like using your engine indicator light to see how fast you are going. :-)

@8: that is one of the biggest problems with the broadcasting of information from Linden Lab - information is sporadic, not always consistent and usually ambiguous. And as Benjamin thankfully pointed out here - rules created are not embodied in the Terms of Service in anything other than &#039;we can find a reason to ban you&#039; clause. 

The credit card processing issues are pretty well known, and they exist for the same reasons that Linden Lab has banned gambling. It is the same reason that Panama no longer allows US Citizens to open bank accounts. Why? Too much trouble.

@9: Benjamin, that is as good a guess as any. Of course, if I simply said the phrase, &quot;You wanna bet?&quot; I might be soliciting gambling... wanna bet? :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@5 Ashcroft &#8211; that was a lot of text to sift through for this:</p>
<p>&#8220;Ahh, I’m not so sure that it is such a bad idea, you know. There’s a good reason that Linden Lab started using their own currency, rather than using PayPal for transactions: it works better across international boundaries, and works better for very small transactions.</p>
<p>With PayPal, one has to pay them for each and every transaction, and pay further to convert one currency into another. Transaction values are very difficult to calculate internationally when different currencies are involved: think, for example, how comparatively few people purchase goods from eBay from foreign as opposed to domestic sellers, especially for low value items&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>There are issues of extradition, what constitutes fraud in different countries, what constitutes gambling&#8230; in short, it isn&#8217;t very comprehensive. I say this because at the UN levels (WSIS, et al), virtual worlds don&#8217;t even seem to exist yet &#8211; partly because virtual world scholars haven&#8217;t tried to discuss such matters at those levels. </p>
<p>And I must add that ecommerce &#8211; which is the context of that stuff &#8211; is not all of national jurisdictions with regard to virtual worlds. Such commerce does not exist in a vacuum. </p>
<p>Oh &#8211; and it&#8217;s it&#8217;s it&#8217;s it&#8217;s. Common mistake, no one dies. :-)</p>
<p>@7: Benjamin, we don&#8217;t know how Linden Lab differentiates between the two and whether they do so consistently. Using the police blotter for guidelines is a lot like using your engine indicator light to see how fast you are going. :-)</p>
<p>@8: that is one of the biggest problems with the broadcasting of information from Linden Lab &#8211; information is sporadic, not always consistent and usually ambiguous. And as Benjamin thankfully pointed out here &#8211; rules created are not embodied in the Terms of Service in anything other than &#8216;we can find a reason to ban you&#8217; clause. </p>
<p>The credit card processing issues are pretty well known, and they exist for the same reasons that Linden Lab has banned gambling. It is the same reason that Panama no longer allows US Citizens to open bank accounts. Why? Too much trouble.</p>
<p>@9: Benjamin, that is as good a guess as any. Of course, if I simply said the phrase, &#8220;You wanna bet?&#8221; I might be soliciting gambling&#8230; wanna bet? :-)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Benjamin Duranske</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4805</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Duranske</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2007 02:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4805</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure about that - of course nobody knows if the Lindens mean it in the traditional sense, but solicitation is a fairly specific crime:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solicitation

Figure they meant it that way here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure about that &#8211; of course nobody knows if the Lindens mean it in the traditional sense, but solicitation is a fairly specific crime:</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solicitation" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/en.wikipedia.org');">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solicitation</a></p>
<p>Figure they meant it that way here?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jessica Holyoke</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4799</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessica Holyoke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Aug 2007 00:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4799</guid>
		<description>I think the divide between gambling and gambling solicitation might be willfulness.  If I am innocently playing sploder or slots, then I can be warned about the consequences.  Afterall, we don&#039;t all read the same information sources or log on all the time. (yes, I know, there are residents who don&#039;t log in all the time, who would have thought it?) Gambling solicitation would be promoting the actual gambling which would have a wider affect.  It can be seen as an inducement to more residents to violate the rules as opposed to singlely violating the rules.  

Although as an addendum,  today it came to me, and then later on found out that methias cordoux (sp) may have been the first to realize this twist on the whole scenario.  (Check the Podcast SL under the radar.)  The credit card companies are prohibited from processing payments relating to gambling.  If the credit card companies were the ones who actually raised the gambling issue, then the banks wouldn&#039;t be hurt by losing Linden Labs, but Linden Labs would take a big hit if they couldn&#039;t accept credit card payments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the divide between gambling and gambling solicitation might be willfulness.  If I am innocently playing sploder or slots, then I can be warned about the consequences.  Afterall, we don&#8217;t all read the same information sources or log on all the time. (yes, I know, there are residents who don&#8217;t log in all the time, who would have thought it?) Gambling solicitation would be promoting the actual gambling which would have a wider affect.  It can be seen as an inducement to more residents to violate the rules as opposed to singlely violating the rules.  </p>
<p>Although as an addendum,  today it came to me, and then later on found out that methias cordoux (sp) may have been the first to realize this twist on the whole scenario.  (Check the Podcast SL under the radar.)  The credit card companies are prohibited from processing payments relating to gambling.  If the credit card companies were the ones who actually raised the gambling issue, then the banks wouldn&#8217;t be hurt by losing Linden Labs, but Linden Labs would take a big hit if they couldn&#8217;t accept credit card payments.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Benjamin Duranske</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4778</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Duranske</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2007 20:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4778</guid>
		<description>Quick update.  Apparently the &quot;Gambling&quot; violations in the police blotter above are rather less serious than &quot;Gambling Solicitation,&quot; which got someone a 14 day suspension today.  See below from the &lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; href=&quot;http://secondlife.com/community/blotter.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;police blotter&lt;/a&gt; this morning:

&lt;strong&gt;Date:&lt;/strong&gt; Saturday, August 11, 2007
&lt;strong&gt; Violation: &lt;/strong&gt;Terms of Service: Gambling Solicitation
&lt;strong&gt; Region: &lt;/strong&gt;Shouldice
&lt;strong&gt; Description:&lt;/strong&gt; TOS Gambling
&lt;strong&gt; Action taken:&lt;/strong&gt; Suspended 14 days.

I assume that means that the 11 people on the blotter yesterday were all busted for &lt;em&gt;playing &lt;/em&gt;games of chance, while this person was busted for &lt;em&gt;running &lt;/em&gt;one.  That&#039;s a surprise to me, as I&#039;d just assumed yesterdays were for operators, not players.  Targeting players is definitely sending a message, even all they&#039;re doing is issuing warnings.

Can anybody else come up with any other logical divide between &quot;Gambling&quot; and &quot;Gambling Solicitation&quot; than this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quick update.  Apparently the &#8220;Gambling&#8221; violations in the police blotter above are rather less serious than &#8220;Gambling Solicitation,&#8221; which got someone a 14 day suspension today.  See below from the <a href="http://secondlife.com/community/blotter.php"rel="nofollow" target="_blank"  rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/secondlife.com');">police blotter</a> this morning:</p>
<p><strong>Date:</strong> Saturday, August 11, 2007<br />
<strong> Violation: </strong>Terms of Service: Gambling Solicitation<br />
<strong> Region: </strong>Shouldice<br />
<strong> Description:</strong> TOS Gambling<br />
<strong> Action taken:</strong> Suspended 14 days.</p>
<p>I assume that means that the 11 people on the blotter yesterday were all busted for <em>playing </em>games of chance, while this person was busted for <em>running </em>one.  That&#8217;s a surprise to me, as I&#8217;d just assumed yesterdays were for operators, not players.  Targeting players is definitely sending a message, even all they&#8217;re doing is issuing warnings.</p>
<p>Can anybody else come up with any other logical divide between &#8220;Gambling&#8221; and &#8220;Gambling Solicitation&#8221; than this?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Benjamin Duranske</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4764</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Duranske</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4764</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure who this is directed to, but whether me or not I&#039;ll stand up and take my beating on it&#039;s/its.  I do it all the time.   Ah, yeah...  There it is.  I&#039;ll edit it, thanks for the heads-up, Ashcroft.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure who this is directed to, but whether me or not I&#8217;ll stand up and take my beating on it&#8217;s/its.  I do it all the time.   Ah, yeah&#8230;  There it is.  I&#8217;ll edit it, thanks for the heads-up, Ashcroft.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ashcroft Burnham</title>
		<link>https://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4763</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashcroft Burnham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Aug 2007 16:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/10/gambling-clarified-enforced-tos-unchanged/#comment-4763</guid>
		<description>Dear chap, please don&#039;t add extraneous apostrophes in &quot;its&quot;: it&#039;s quite painful to read.

(For those interested on the interaction of international virtual worlds and national jurisdictions, see &lt;a href=&quot;http://gwynethllewelyn.net/article192visual1layout1.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear chap, please don&#8217;t add extraneous apostrophes in &#8220;its&#8221;: it&#8217;s quite painful to read.</p>
<p>(For those interested on the interaction of international virtual worlds and national jurisdictions, see <a href="http://gwynethllewelyn.net/article192visual1layout1.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/gwynethllewelyn.net');">here</a>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
