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	<title>Comments on: Taxing Your Virtual Profits &#8211; It&#8217;s Coming&#8230;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/</link>
	<description>Legal Issues That Impact Virtual Worlds</description>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Duranske</title>
		<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4411</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Duranske</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 15:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4411</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s surprisingly on topic, for religious spam.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s surprisingly on topic, for religious spam.</p>
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		<title>By: me2to</title>
		<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4391</link>
		<dc:creator>me2to</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Aug 2007 10:32:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4391</guid>
		<description>Why do some people want taxes paid?
To who?
For what?
So that more education and health care might be funded?
Or, so that armies can go out killing?
Or, so that nuclear bombs might be built, or nuclear power plants?
You know what? I figure something out lately.
Electricity is the main problem in our society nowadays.
Get rid of electricity, and alot of the current modern troubles lessen quite dramatically. Cars won&#039;t be able to start without electricity, and that industry can just go away.
Not as much &#039;need&#039; for oil, if there were no electricity.
People fighting over oil, is immature, you know.
Why not just stop using electricity, and humble yourselves?
If the governments outlawed electricity, then I would consider paying them some taxes, maybe.
But, seeing as how they are currently intent on increasing electricity, then I see no reason to give such corrupt people any monies.
There is only a small percentage of electricity usage that might be somewhat justified for using electricity, I think.
Computers would just go away, without electricity, and that might be good.
Electricity is the &#039;LIGHT&#039; and the &#039;POWER&#039;.
It is a religion.
Don&#039;t try and tell me that people who worship electricity are not religious.
Sounds like a God to me: &#039;LIGHT&#039; and &#039;POWER&#039;.
Did you know that Jesus is the &#039;LIGHT&#039; of the world?
&#039;POWER AND GLORY&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do some people want taxes paid?<br />
To who?<br />
For what?<br />
So that more education and health care might be funded?<br />
Or, so that armies can go out killing?<br />
Or, so that nuclear bombs might be built, or nuclear power plants?<br />
You know what? I figure something out lately.<br />
Electricity is the main problem in our society nowadays.<br />
Get rid of electricity, and alot of the current modern troubles lessen quite dramatically. Cars won&#8217;t be able to start without electricity, and that industry can just go away.<br />
Not as much &#8216;need&#8217; for oil, if there were no electricity.<br />
People fighting over oil, is immature, you know.<br />
Why not just stop using electricity, and humble yourselves?<br />
If the governments outlawed electricity, then I would consider paying them some taxes, maybe.<br />
But, seeing as how they are currently intent on increasing electricity, then I see no reason to give such corrupt people any monies.<br />
There is only a small percentage of electricity usage that might be somewhat justified for using electricity, I think.<br />
Computers would just go away, without electricity, and that might be good.<br />
Electricity is the &#8216;LIGHT&#8217; and the &#8216;POWER&#8217;.<br />
It is a religion.<br />
Don&#8217;t try and tell me that people who worship electricity are not religious.<br />
Sounds like a God to me: &#8216;LIGHT&#8217; and &#8216;POWER&#8217;.<br />
Did you know that Jesus is the &#8216;LIGHT&#8217; of the world?<br />
&#8216;POWER AND GLORY&#8217;</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Duranske</title>
		<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4276</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Duranske</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 05:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4276</guid>
		<description>Nobody - I think you&#039;re on to something here, but I want to get the terms worked out.  Is your point that Second Life is basically a browser, albeit for a very limited part of the internet?  In other words, it&#039;s just a client-side application?  

If that&#039;s what you are saying, then it leads to the conclusion I think you&#039;re drawing: that international internet-specific law/agreements ought to apply (though that raises another question -- *what* agreements, domain dispute rules, etc.?) 

Can you nail down the specifics on this so we&#039;re talking the same terms?

The argument I think you&#039;re going to end up dealing with here is that the server side stuff isn&#039;t open, so *that* is a Linden Lab service (more like the old proprietary AOL or Prodigy services) at least for now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody &#8211; I think you&#8217;re on to something here, but I want to get the terms worked out.  Is your point that Second Life is basically a browser, albeit for a very limited part of the internet?  In other words, it&#8217;s just a client-side application?  </p>
<p>If that&#8217;s what you are saying, then it leads to the conclusion I think you&#8217;re drawing: that international internet-specific law/agreements ought to apply (though that raises another question &#8212; *what* agreements, domain dispute rules, etc.?) </p>
<p>Can you nail down the specifics on this so we&#8217;re talking the same terms?</p>
<p>The argument I think you&#8217;re going to end up dealing with here is that the server side stuff isn&#8217;t open, so *that* is a Linden Lab service (more like the old proprietary AOL or Prodigy services) at least for now.</p>
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		<title>By: Nobody Fugazi</title>
		<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4274</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody Fugazi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 05:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4274</guid>
		<description>Ashcroft &amp; Benjamin:  from Gwyneth&#039;s article:

&quot;Alas, Second Life is not the “Internet” — not yet. Technically, from a legal point of view, it’s a service provided by a Californian company, even if well over 95% of its users are not in California. Still, since Linden Lab is bound to remain in San Francisco for quite a long time, they have no option but to comply with local, state, and federal laws.&quot;

While it IS a service provided by a Californian company, that service extends beyond the borders of California and the United States. That makes it subject to international law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ashcroft &amp; Benjamin:  from Gwyneth&#8217;s article:</p>
<p>&#8220;Alas, Second Life is not the “Internet” — not yet. Technically, from a legal point of view, it’s a service provided by a Californian company, even if well over 95% of its users are not in California. Still, since Linden Lab is bound to remain in San Francisco for quite a long time, they have no option but to comply with local, state, and federal laws.&#8221;</p>
<p>While it IS a service provided by a Californian company, that service extends beyond the borders of California and the United States. That makes it subject to international law.</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Duranske</title>
		<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4252</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Duranske</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 22:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4252</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the link, Ashcroft.  That&#039;s what I read that I was thinking of earlier, I believe.  Hat tip to Gwyneth.  It&#039;s a good article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link, Ashcroft.  That&#8217;s what I read that I was thinking of earlier, I believe.  Hat tip to Gwyneth.  It&#8217;s a good article.</p>
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		<title>By: Ashcroft Burnham</title>
		<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4251</link>
		<dc:creator>Ashcroft Burnham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 22:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4251</guid>
		<description>Benjamin: Gwyneth Llewelyn has a recent article about exactly that: see &lt;a href=&quot;http://gwynethllewelyn.net/article182visual1layout1.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Benjamin: Gwyneth Llewelyn has a recent article about exactly that: see <a href="http://gwynethllewelyn.net/article182visual1layout1.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/gwynethllewelyn.net');">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Nobody Fugazi</title>
		<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4245</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody Fugazi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4245</guid>
		<description>@6: Rick, if you want to declare SL a territory of the United States, then you&#039;re expecting Linden Lab employees to be ambassadors on behalf of the United States. 

You&#039;re also opening up a can of worms - and quite likely creating fractures in virtual worlds. Where that can be avoided, it should.

It seems rather lazy and perhaps even irresponsible that virtual world law is not involved in internet governance. While internet governance legalities may not be as exciting as some may wish, well - most of the world lives outside the United States. As intenet penetration increases around the globe, the case for a US control decreases daily - if you believe in democracy. And the majority of SL users exist outside of the United States.

And as far as that goes, legal precedents exist where the location of where the content is viewed is where the laws are applied. 

I keep saying internet governance over and over. I don&#039;t see why anyone would avoid those issues, since virtual worlds obviously inherit from the technological and legal base.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@6: Rick, if you want to declare SL a territory of the United States, then you&#8217;re expecting Linden Lab employees to be ambassadors on behalf of the United States. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re also opening up a can of worms &#8211; and quite likely creating fractures in virtual worlds. Where that can be avoided, it should.</p>
<p>It seems rather lazy and perhaps even irresponsible that virtual world law is not involved in internet governance. While internet governance legalities may not be as exciting as some may wish, well &#8211; most of the world lives outside the United States. As intenet penetration increases around the globe, the case for a US control decreases daily &#8211; if you believe in democracy. And the majority of SL users exist outside of the United States.</p>
<p>And as far as that goes, legal precedents exist where the location of where the content is viewed is where the laws are applied. </p>
<p>I keep saying internet governance over and over. I don&#8217;t see why anyone would avoid those issues, since virtual worlds obviously inherit from the technological and legal base.</p>
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		<title>By: Nobody Fugazi</title>
		<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4242</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody Fugazi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 21:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4242</guid>
		<description>Another thought...

If money is passing over geopolitical borders... which it is... where does that leave all of this? Linden Lab pays taxes (we assume), but do other Lindex exchanges?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thought&#8230;</p>
<p>If money is passing over geopolitical borders&#8230; which it is&#8230; where does that leave all of this? Linden Lab pays taxes (we assume), but do other Lindex exchanges?</p>
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		<title>By: Benjamin Duranske</title>
		<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4231</link>
		<dc:creator>Benjamin Duranske</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 18:19:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4231</guid>
		<description>matt - good point on the fact that LL management/business operations are in the US and that&#039;s going to prevent them from acting like, say, someone who runs a gambling web site in Antigua.  Besides David Carruthers, I&#039;m fairly sure I&#039;ve read about other people getting grabbed by US agents when changing planes and things like that too.  I knew there was something fishy in that theory but hadn&#039;t thought it through completely.  That&#039;s definitely the problem, of course.  Thanks for the comment.

What about publishing standards for interoperability with the Second Life grid and letting completely foreign operators build transparently accessible server farms governed by their own local laws?  LL would still be selling subscriptions to US citizens, but it hardly seems any worse than Qwest selling internet access to US citizens who use it to bet on sports on foreign sites.  Do you see any problems there (aside from the obvious business concerns, etc.)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>matt &#8211; good point on the fact that LL management/business operations are in the US and that&#8217;s going to prevent them from acting like, say, someone who runs a gambling web site in Antigua.  Besides David Carruthers, I&#8217;m fairly sure I&#8217;ve read about other people getting grabbed by US agents when changing planes and things like that too.  I knew there was something fishy in that theory but hadn&#8217;t thought it through completely.  That&#8217;s definitely the problem, of course.  Thanks for the comment.</p>
<p>What about publishing standards for interoperability with the Second Life grid and letting completely foreign operators build transparently accessible server farms governed by their own local laws?  LL would still be selling subscriptions to US citizens, but it hardly seems any worse than Qwest selling internet access to US citizens who use it to bet on sports on foreign sites.  Do you see any problems there (aside from the obvious business concerns, etc.)?</p>
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		<title>By: matt@ironrealms.com</title>
		<link>http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4227</link>
		<dc:creator>matt@ironrealms.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Aug 2007 18:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://virtuallyblind.com/2007/08/04/taxing-virtual-profits-uk/#comment-4227</guid>
		<description>I think the idea that virtual worlds are their own nations is just  silly frankly. I wrote an article on it back in June: http://forge.ironrealms.com/2007/06/07/nations-that-are-not/

Benjamin: Setting up servers in other places won&#039;t do it. The US claims the right, routinely, to regulate the behavior of US-based people/entities when they&#039;re operating outside of the US.

As long as Linden and/or the individuals that control it wish to enter the country, they&#039;re going to, at some level, be subject to US laws.

Note, for instance, that setting up their servers AND being organized as a company elsewhere AND not being citizens of the US did not help David Carruthers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Carruthers) who was arrested on a transit flight to Costa Rica via Dallas (where he was arrested) because his company had accepted online wagers from US citizens.

--matt</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the idea that virtual worlds are their own nations is just  silly frankly. I wrote an article on it back in June: <a href="http://forge.ironrealms.com/2007/06/07/nations-that-are-not/" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/forge.ironrealms.com');">http://forge.ironrealms.com/2007/06/07/nations-that-are-not/</a></p>
<p>Benjamin: Setting up servers in other places won&#8217;t do it. The US claims the right, routinely, to regulate the behavior of US-based people/entities when they&#8217;re operating outside of the US.</p>
<p>As long as Linden and/or the individuals that control it wish to enter the country, they&#8217;re going to, at some level, be subject to US laws.</p>
<p>Note, for instance, that setting up their servers AND being organized as a company elsewhere AND not being citizens of the US did not help David Carruthers (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Carruthers" rel="nofollow" onclick="javascript:urchinTracker ('/outbound/comment/en.wikipedia.org');">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Carruthers</a>) who was arrested on a transit flight to Costa Rica via Dallas (where he was arrested) because his company had accepted online wagers from US citizens.</p>
<p>&#8211;matt</p>
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